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Talk:Benjamin Sisko
FA status Nomination * Benjamin Sisko: Self-nomination. I've worked slowly on this for a couple of weeks or so, and frankly gave up. It's still pretty weak regarding his role as the Emissary, particularly the final few seasons. It's still extremely informative. If a few other people tweak it, it will be amazing. Ryan123450 05:56, 15 Sep 2004 (CEST) ::I believe all relevant information has been discussed. Supported Ottens 10:49, 15 Sep 2004 (CEST) **Certainly support. --BlueMars 23:29, Sep 15, 2004 (CEST) Article was archived as successful by Blue Mars on 22 September 2004. Tag was added by Steve Mollmann on 21 November 2004. Discussion archived here for future reference.– Cleanse ( talk | ) 01:58, October 31, 2010 (UTC) Removal For the same reasons as the Dukat article (although Dukat is worse): lacks organization, the personal relationships section is missing for nearly all folks and his relationship to most of the crew members are somehow jumbled into one section. It goes on. Overall, this article does not represent "the best example of the Memory Alpha community's work". – Distantlycharmed 17:51, October 29, 2010 (UTC) :Oppose: I believe the article is fine and gives enough detail into Sisko's life, relationships, and career as depicted in DS9. Granted there is room for improvement in the personal relationships section, the necessary work doesn't warrant it's removal as a featured article. --Nero210 19:15, October 29, 2010 (UTC) Well, duh, if it needs that kind of improvement requiring a pna incomplete add, then there is obviously something lacking; it also means that it does not meet "the best example of the Memory Alpha community's work" criteria. By the way, everyone, when was it nominated? I cant find the nomination. – Distantlycharmed 19:35, October 29, 2010 (UTC) :Well then add the fricken info and be done with it! If that's all it needs....-- 16:43, October 30, 2010 (UTC) ::Let's keep this civil guys. Also (assuming this is Nero210), please log in when commenting. Thanks. ::Anyway, I found the nomination and posted it on the talk page.– Cleanse ( talk | ) 02:00, October 31, 2010 (UTC) Cleanse!! You are good. How did you find it? I couldnt find it in the 2004 archives :(– Distantlycharmed 04:50, October 31, 2010 (UTC) ::Glad to help. :-) It was buried in the history of Memory Alpha:Featured article nominations. I had a hunch it would be towards the beginning; some of those earlier entries were done before there was a formal archive process for successful entries (as far as I'm aware).– Cleanse ( talk | ) 08:23, October 31, 2010 (UTC) :::Oppose. Being a featured article doesn't mean that it's done or that there aren't better articles. None of our articles are done, and they all have room for improvement. This article is still miles ahead of over 90% of the rest of them, and IMO the upper 10% should be our featured articles. - 03:42, November 15, 2010 (UTC) ::::Oppose. I think that Featured status is warranted. If something is missing it can certainly be added, but that does not take away from what is there now.--31dot 02:32, November 16, 2010 (UTC) Review While it is true this article does have some detailed sections, there is also a lot missing from it, particularly from the "Relationships" section. For example, Worf isn't mentioned and neither is Bashir (with whom he had a sometimes rocky relationship i.e. in ). The "Memorable quotes" section looks cluttered and one or two of them could be removed as per MA:QUOTE. And while I understand we're not Memory Beta, there is certainly more that could be included in the "Apocrypha" section. This article is not quite complete, but nearly there. I feel until some work has been done on it, this should not be featured. --| TrekFan Open a channel 23:30, March 17, 2018 (UTC) :I'm going to have to oppose the removal of this article, for much of the same reasoning I did last time. :While the criteria does say that an article should be complete, it also says "without adding any unnecessary rambling," and I tend to view a lot of the relationships sections as unnecessary. When I think of Sisko and Worf, or Bashir, I tend to think of two people who work together and clearly respect each other, and that's about it. I was never under the impression that Sisko was palling around with them as opposed to being a good commander and having an interest in the welfare of his officers. If I'm wrong about that, I would think the act of proving me so would provide the necessary info to create those sections anyway. :As for quotes, I don't think any amount of quotes, or a lack thereof, should be a factor in FA consideration. If you think there are too many or some should be removed, simply remove them. Someone will come along eventually and add them back; not because they disagree with the removal, they most likely won't even be aware of it, but because if we don't prune these back every once in a while we will end up with transcripts of every speech a character has ever given. Quotes are flat out using the source material, so there isn't, or at least shouldn't be much to discuss on that front, and the FA processes are mainly to work on and judge the parts of an article that aren't verbatim what was on screen. :The apocrypha section also seems to cover the relevant continuation of Sisko's story without reproducing MB. It's not much, but it does cover the board strokes, which is what we do with this stuff. I've added some links, but I don't think we need more than that. - 16:18, March 27, 2018 (UTC) Fair enough, I respect your view. My aim with bringing up these discussions isn't to make changes to each of them by adding/removing info (that would take forever!) but rather to get the FA list in a state where it's up to date. Once that's achieved, edits can be made to improve the ones that are removed with a view to perhaps relisting them in the future. I'm just trying to get a discussion going on the old ones that's all, as we do have a LOT of FAs that haven't been reviewed for 10+ years and have changed quite significantly in that time. Again, thank you for replying. Whatever the outcome is with this one, at least it has been looked at. --| TrekFan Open a channel 17:02, March 27, 2018 (UTC) ::Oppose. Worf and Bashir are mentioned in passing in the "The crew and residents of Deep Space 9" subsection, which could probably be expanded somewhat, for example the fact that he several times represented his officers in court. But I agree with Archduk3, his relationship with those two was professional, sometimes they had important bilateral actions, with Bashir in Pale Moonlight or with Worf in Change of Heart/Rules of Engagement, but nowhere nearly that special like with Kira or Dax. ::I did some work on the article. If you want to cut down on quotes, I'd suggest the "FIIIREEEEE!!" and the first "In the Pale Moonlight" quote. Kennelly (talk) 14:43, March 31, 2018 (UTC) :If you're looking to update the FA status, the only real way to do that is to either approve of a current version or outright removal. Right now, this will end in a deadlock, so the article will still be considered "old" even though it has been looked at recently. There really isn't a good way to change how the template works without making it super easy to abuse, though it can be done. Considering I'm apparently the only one who reliably updates all the related FA bells and whistles pages, I would strongly oppose adding another step to the process. - 12:58, April 6, 2018 (UTC) I don't think the template needs to change specifically but this discussion will end up on the article talk page so there is a record that it has been looked at is what I meant. I just thought if each time an article needed to be improved to maintain its FA status before review it would take forever to complete the task. Whereas, if they were confirmed/removed after discussion in order to bring the list up to date, then edits could always be made afterward. I'll stop before I go on too much though as this isn't directly related to the article's review. Thanks for replying though. --| TrekFan Open a channel 13:55, April 7, 2018 (UTC) longer, more detailed captions are better in my opinion the purpose of image descriptions is a complete description of what is seen. concerning persons it's vital to mention the FULL name and the current rank, when the image was made. --BlueMars 18:47, May 31, 2004 (CEST) :I disagree. Images on MA should support the article, not replace it. In my opinion, a caption should be concise, but short. The used images should show how that character looked when 'we' saw him/her for the first, and for the last time. In that context, it isn't necessary to know which rank he/she had at that time, nor is it necessary to have middle names spelled out each time. -- Cid Highwind 19:11, 31 May 2004 (CEST) ::Why mention the person's full name, when it's in the article? It's doubtful we'd have someone else's picture in that article. Including the date would tell us what rank that person was, since that would be in the article. As Cid says, captions should support the article. The length of caption that I replaced was unwieldy and distracted from the information around it. -- Michael Warren 19:33, 31 May 2004 (CEST) That's two against one, i will have to comply... --BlueMars 16:01, Jun 1, 2004 (CEST) Special Training I think a good argument can be made that Sisko went back to Starfleet Academy for special training in the tradition of Ro Laren sometime after 2364. My argument can be found in the articles Benzite and Laporin. Using dates from Sisko's career we may be better able to place the date of this possible upgrading. Ok, my argument has been removed from those pages, I will state it here. Established canon states: There were no Benzites in Starfleet Academy before 2364. ( ) And Sisko was in Starfleet Academy with a Benzite. ( ) Logic dictates that Sisko must have been in Starfleet Academy 2364 or later. Tyrant 03:47, 3 Mar 2005 (GMT) : Benzenites not Benzites. --Alan 13:22, 17 September 2008 (UTC) Sisko's brothers? There was an episode in Season 1 or 2, where Sisko says he had a few brothers. Anyone know what episode? Tough Little Ship 12:58, 26 Jul 2005 (UTC) * --Alan del Beccio 01:48, 9 Sep 2005 (UTC) Sisko's previous assignments As a simple point of curiousity, the order of a couple of Benjamin Sisko's early assignments is interesting. Specifically, one wonders why he would transfer from a position of Executive Officer on the Okinawa (an Exclesior class ship) to the same post on the Saratoga (a Miranda class ship). It seems that his early posting would have been one of greater comfort and prestige. This is not a complaint, as there are any number of valid explanations. There may have been a job opporitunity for his wife Jennifer on the Saratoga, or maybe the Okinawa was retired preventing him from getting command or at least maintaining his post when Leyton left.HaganeNoKokoro 01:36, 9 Sep 2005 (UTC) :Indeed, very peculiar, but probably not by choice. Its possible Sisko was simply moved to wherever was necessary, based upon his experience. -- 22:53, 24 September 2008 (UTC) ::I also recall in "The Foresaken", Sisko or Jadzia Dax mentioned that when Sisko was on the Livingston he once punched a visiting ambassador because he was sexually harassing a female ensign. Could it be added, since it was canonically mentioned and somewhat beefs up that section. Also I believe in "Emissary" that Sisko was thinking of resigning and returning to Earth to construct oribital habiats as Sisko stated to Worf in "Way of the Warrior Part II". 12:42, January 28, 2013 (UTC) Resignation In section 3.3, paragraph 3, "At this point, Sisko told Picard he intended to resign." If memory serves, Sisko mentioned he wanted reassignment. I understand that this would mean resigning his position, but the article makes it sound like he wanted to resign Starfleet. Before I edit this to read "told Picard he intended to resign his position and request reassignment", perhaps someone with a clearer recollection of the conversation could clarify if this is correct or not.--Seleya 01:40, 13 February 2006 (UTC) :Sisko says he is considering civilian service, so that suggests he was considering resigning his commission completely. Starfleet officers go where they are sent or they quit, they don't always get to choose their assignments. Hermiod 15:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC) Sisko's second child Article: Chronology: 2376: Second child born (presumably). Where's this from? --Bp 22:19, 8 March 2006 (UTC) She was pregnant at the end of the series. --Bp 10:52, 14 June 2006 (UTC) Oh thank you for finally answering my question! --Bp 10:52, 14 June 2006 (UTC) No problem dude. --Bp 10:52, 14 June 2006 (UTC) :By the way, Kasidy was pregnant at the end of the... oh... um, nevermind. :D --From Andoria with Love 10:55, 14 June 2006 (UTC) Who outranks whom, Jean-Luc or Sisko Somebody please advises, does Jean-Luc outrank Sisko?Seems that Sisko is receiving orders from Jean-Luc at the beginning of DS9, am I wrong? :Sisko was a Commander at the beginning of DS9, therefore Picard did outrank him. --From Andoria with Love 10:48, 14 June 2006 (UTC) ::Plus Picard would have seniority over Sisko even if he hadn't been a commander. --UESPA 01:17, 14 January 2008 (UTC) :::Not necessarily. I don't remember the episode, but in VOY when Janeway encounters another starship lost in the Delta quadrant, she cites some Starfleet regulation that states the captain who commands the ship with tactical superiority outranks the opposing captain. If Sisko was captain, DS9 may have had tactical superiority over the enterprise. - Vih :Fleet captains, aka starship captains, have a slight edge over other captains as per naval tradition. So if Picard and Sisko had a meeting on Earth, Picard would "outrank" Sisko. Though this is a informal tradition, not a formal one. On DS9, Sisko would outrank Picard, after his promotion to captain. Sisko would have been able to give orders to Picard anyways, as DS9 is his station, though in the first episode, Picard is giving Sisko his orders to be the station commander, and they're on the Enterprise. - Archduk3talk 19:37, 2 August 2009 (UTC) Romulan embassy How could Sisko have been assigned to an embassy on Romulus as a Lt. J.G.? Wasn't there no federation contact with the Romulans prior to 2364? -- StAkAr Karnak 02:52, 16 November 2006 (UTC) : Maybe that was the reason the scene in which that was mentioned got cut? --Mr. Tuvok 19:55, 28 April 2008 (UTC) Hobbies I remember him slugging away at a heavy bag in one episode. Should boxing be listed as one of his hobbies? 02:32, 3 December 2006 (UTC) Death? Why does the page about Sisko tell us that he died in 2375? The final DS9 episode shows him with the Prophets, but still alive. I think it should say he's "Missing in Action" or something like that. Take out the death. Homefront and Paradise Lost Wouldn't these two episodes be notable in sisko's life. and . after all sisko was briefly promoted to "Chief of Starfleet Security on Earth". also he is mentioned to have worked on the with admiral Leyton. I'd interject as a second paragraph of Rising Pressures: The fear of the dominion spread to Earth. As part of his former captain's, Admiral Leyton, plan to Coup d'état the Earth's government, Sisko was briefly promoted to Chief of Starfleet Security on Earth. Leyton's plan backfired when Sisko and Odo exposed the plan. ( and ) :Greetings! I have added your suggestion (a good one by the way :)) to the Sisko article, although, don't be hesitant to make additions yourself. :) - V. Adm. Enzo Aquarius 14:21, 25 April 2007 (UTC) Modified my work again, to something more substantal: Fear of the Dominion spread to Earth after video footage of the Antwerp Conference bombing was linked to changeling infiltration. Sisko's knowledge of the founders led to his brief promotion to Chief of Starfleet Security on Earth. Using Odo as a test subject, Sisko implements many new security measures on Earth such as automated low level phaser sweeps thoughout Starfleet Headquarters. Unfortunately, his promotion was part of Sisko's former Captain's, Admiral Leyton, plan to overthrow Earth's government. Leyton underestimates Sisko's loyalty, and the Coup d'état failed when Sisko and Odo exposed the plan. ( ) Middle Name What is the citation for Lafayette being his middle name? - 19:54, 29 June 2007 (UTC) : His father Joseph Sisko called him Benjamin Lafayette Sisko, when Sisko ordered a blood test to find out if he is a changeling. Joseph Sisko was disappointed by this order. I think it was in . – Tom 20:36, 29 June 2007 (UTC) Friendship with Martok Shouldn't Martok be added to the list of Sisko's friends (and vice versa)? The two obviously became good friends, as brothers in arms. I'll work out a paragraph about it. --Mr. Tuvok 19:59, 28 April 2008 (UTC) Sisko and Dukat I think that a section in Sisko's relationship files should at least mention Dukat. The two of these charicters have some of the best chemistry of the entire show. :It would be best to discuss this on the talk page for Sisko.--31dot 11:07, 17 September 2008 (UTC) Removed *In the game Star Trek Online, Sisko is still living in the Wormhole, because at the end of one of the later missions, a Prophet says that "The Sisko" convinced them to leave the task of destroying the Orb of Possibilities to the player. Who is to say the prophets didn't just appear to him in a vision like they did on the series? Human/Prophet Hybrid What is the logic behind designating Sisko a Human/Prophet Hybrid? Sarah was possessed by a prophet at the time, but her body was still Human which would make Sisko a full Human regardless of him being "pre-ordained" to be a tool of the prophets. :I agree. It's a bit like the Christian doctrine that Jesus Christ was "fully God and fully man", not a human/god hybrid. Sisko was human, albeit a Human with a special destiny chosen by the Prophets. I've removed that text and the associated category. —Josiah Rowe 06:16, September 13, 2010 (UTC) ::Somebody just re-added it. I'll remove it, if nobody objects. - Mitchz95 16:37, December 20, 2011 (UTC) :::Remove away . :) --31dot 17:08, December 20, 2011 (UTC) Removed quote "Call anybody you want, they can't do anything to me, not any more, and nor can any of you. I am a Human being, dammit! You can deny me all you want but you can't deny Ben Sisko – He exists! That future, that space station, all those people – they exist in here! (pointing to his head) In my mind. I created it. And everyone of you knew it, you read it. It's here. (pointing to his head again) Do you hear what I'm telling you? You can pulp a story but you cannot destroy an idea, don't you understand, that's ancient knowledge, you cannot destroy an idea. (becoming hysterical) That future – I created it, and it's real! Don't you understand? It is real. I created it. And it's real! It's REAL! Oh God!" (he collapses, sobbing hysterically) : - Benny Russell (Benjamin Sisko) in I removed the above quote, as it is an entire passage, not just a quote, and if his motions have to be described, it's not too memorable. I'm also not really sure how it describes Sisko as a character(which quotes on a character's page should do), which I must say could probably go for a lot of the recently added quotes.--31dot 01:52, February 16, 2011 (UTC) :As I stated previously, this quote was already on the page for that particular episode. So it appears as if the "enforcement" the quotes guidelines may be inconsistent, creating confusion amongst contributors. --Virtualstuart 02:44, February 16, 2011 (UTC) Just because such a quote is on another page does not mean in and of itself that it can be on any page, it only means that it hasn't been removed or altered yet. Also, a quote can be appropriate for an episode page and not a character page.--31dot 02:45, February 16, 2011 (UTC) :Yes, but if you let it slide on the episode page, that creates a precedent and an example that others will accordingly follow. So again, the enforcement is inconsistent. :Also, it's extremely rude to criticize my choice of quotes, considering that neither you nor any one else had added any at all. The quote regarding Benny Russel is one of Avery Brooks' favorites; he of course directed this episode. So to state that this and the other quotes don't give an insight into Captain Sisko is not accurate. :Moreover, this is the type snide remark is exactly what I was referring to when I said that you were discouraging rather than encouraging people to volunteer their time to build up the page.--Virtualstuart 02:55, February 16, 2011 (UTC) I think you are taking things a little too personally. I did not make a snide remark. I was speaking the truth- this is a wiki and as such it sometimes takes time to get around to 30,000 pages and implement a policy. There are not that many regular users, so it takes time. I'm also not sure what the fact that I haven't added quotes to this page has to do with anything- any aspect of any article is valid for discussion at any time by anyone. One does not have to add something to an article to be able to comment on it.--31dot 02:59, February 16, 2011 (UTC) The fact that the quote is Mr. Brooks's favorite would be valid background material as it provides insight into Brooks' views on the character- but it doesn't have to be listed in the quotes section, as it is too long for a quote.--31dot 03:01, February 16, 2011 (UTC) :I understand that it takes time to review all of the pages. However, if policies are enforced inconsistently, that creates a bad example, which new users will follow. That's merely a simple fact I was pointing out. Furthermore, I never stated that you didn't have the right to comment on my work. Of course, on the internet, any one can write what they wish. I was stating that your critiques of my choice of quotes, which in my opinion were both snide and inaccurate , discourage people from contributing rather than encouraging them to do more. Sisko's interaction with the Prophets, the death of his wife, his dealings with the Maquis and Commander Hudson, his lying to the Romulans to trick them into joining the war, all go to the very essence of his character, both as a Human being and a starfleet officer. --Virtualstuart 03:13, February 16, 2011 (UTC) These are some good quotes by Sisko, but they are not really about Sisko unless one puts a lot of thought into them, at least in my opinion. A memorable quote should instantly convey an aspect of a character in a minimum of words. There are probably better, shorter quotes to convey the aspects of the character. As I said, if a particular quote or passage was a favorite of Mr. Brooks, that can be added to the article in the Background section(and also Brooks' article) with a citation.--31dot 03:25, February 16, 2011 (UTC) Sisko on Bajor -- DS9 Relaunch Novels Do the DS9 relaunch novels explain why Sisko was allowed to live on Bajor again? The prophets said that "he would find no rest" on Bajor because of his actions in "Sacrifice of Angels" 16:29, May 18, 2013 (UTC) :The story presented in those is a bit more complicated. Memory Beta has some of the details of the events of the novels and the outcomes. -- sulfur (talk) 16:33, May 18, 2013 (UTC) Transformation DS9 seemed to be such a capable and efficient show. The only reason why I can think why Avery made such a bodily transformation from S1 to S7. Was there any behind the scene answer? --CaptainAlphaWiki22 (talk) 18:41, May 1, 2016 (UTC)